About crossing-over......my weak point!!!!!
A proposito di crossing-over : il mio punto debole!
(private: Hi Wessel,
it looks like I cannot reach you anymore with my emails!!!I never received any reply since I resent my last 4 posts, after that I sent you another two.)
My question today is :
cock green/cinnamon/pallid x hen lutino
can this (undesirable of course) combination result in any of the following crossing-overs:
Puç la suddetta (indesiderabile) combinazione risultare in tutti e tre i seguenti crossing-over:
cinnamon-pallid green
cinnamon-ino green
pallid-ino green
??????
What is the difference in the phenotype.
La differenza nel fenotipo?
Will they always be hens.
Saranno sempre femmine?
Wessel van der Veen
11-06-08, 10: 50
Salve Miriam:
Questa coppia assurdo produrre:
M:
1) 48,5 % verde/cinnamon/ino
2) 1.5% verde/ino
3) 48.5% PallidIno verde
4) 1.5% PallidIno verde /cinnamon
F:
5) 48.5% pallid verde
6) 48.5% cinnamon verde
7) 1.5% verde
8) 1.5% pallid-cinnamon verde
1,2 e 7: fenotipo identico
3,4 e 8: fenotipo indentico
Assurdo perché:
Non mai combinare cinnamon con ino o pallid*
Gli ino's o pallids ottenen remiganti con un soffusion bruno, ma gli remiganti de un ino sono bianca e di un pallid grigio.
Ino (reduzione de eumelnina de quasi 100 %) no e capabile de ascugiare eumelanina bruno. Si ino no e capabile un "ino no completo" = pallid con un reduzione de 60 % certo no pote ascuguiare queste eumelanina bruno.
* Pallid e un allele de SL ino, SOLO en Italia ancora chiamato isabella, nonostante "isabella" e il nome de un combinazione de eumelanina e
phaeomelanine con gli canarini e no essisten psittacidae con phaeomelanine.
A regola d'arte:
Non mai combinare due mutazione de stessa famiglia,
dunque:
1) non mai combinare 2 mutazione de melanina
(pastel, cinnamon, ino,etc)
2) nom mai combinare 2 mutazione de psittacofulvina
(aqua o turquoise con faccia arancio)
ma combinare 1, 2 o 1+2 con fattori strutturale
(scuro, viola)
Wessel van der Veen.
PS: spedire gia 3 volti messagio al indirizze private
Per favore, spiegami meglio il punto 2)
Grazie!
Per favore, spiegami meglio il punto 2)
Grazie!
Ah, ora ho capito. Avevo letto "mai" al posto di "ma", quindi i conti non tornavano!
Privato.
(Wessel, can you pls copy the text of the emails you sent me on a private message of this Forum?)
Wessel van der Veen
11-06-08, 15: 11
Salve Miriam:
Questo e il ultima de 5/6/2008 14.13
>>
Hi Miriam:
>> Hi Wessel, I see there has been a study of the "pure" turquoises, alias
"bleached": Do you have this article, or the link to it? I missed it and do not understand much from the BVA list messages. As you have the gift of being clear, could you pls explain to me what it says in short?>>
Go to http://www.agapornis.be/english.htm, then articles, then roseicollis and you'll have it in full.
But between you and me: I still think people have managed to ruin the genuine turquoise birds and are making a lot of money by selling these bleached ones to inexperienced folks. I have fought to get them declassified at the shows, regrettably without succes.
>> Did you get the one with foto of the little amazon killed?>>
Yes, but I can't tell you who killed it.
>> I did not get any comment from you. Anything allright?
How is Ria's father and the situation in general?>>
He is going unbelievably strong after his stroke at 87 years of age. In all kinds of weather he tries to walk outside with the aid of a "rollator" ( a walking aid on wheels) which gives plenty of support. Doctor an masseur are surprised by his progress.
>> Here bad news.
This morning I found the baby killed. It was still warm, with full crop. It
had deep beack signs between the shoulders, light under the bill and half
head and the upper part of the bill have been removed.
Any idea who did this and why?
She is still brooding the clear eggs, he enters the nest to feed her.
What shall I do.>>
That also is impossible to say.
May be the cock who got annoyed by a stranger (the chick) in the nest.
Maybe the hen, who wanted to brood quietly in stead of having to feed.
Maybe plain inexperience.
I'd leave her alone till she leaves the nest by herself. Amazons only very seldom double clutch, so maybe the better option is to let her end the breeding season in her own time. As written already: I have had a somewhat similar experience with a wonderfull pair of A. autumnalis. Do not forget you are dealing with basically wild animals. Unlike Agapornis grido stridente (AKA A. roseicollis) the Amazons are absolutely NOT domesticated, so you can
only guess at what triggers a certain event and then try to avoid that event the next time.
Tonight is the special opening of the Korean Restaurant of our Chinese friends. Some 25 people (friends or long time customers) have been invited.
I arranged a senior-sit (= baby-sit for eldery people) for tonight so Ria can
come along and relax and rest a bit. She bloody well needs that!
Last Tuesday I bought 4 Nyasa at a breeder's in Holland: 1 has died
meanwhile, the others look good.
So next Monday I'll send of the feathers for sexing and Polyoma testing of my 25 young birds and the three survivors. Depending on the results I hope to:
1) make two more pairs, so getting at a total of 10 pairs.
2) change one hen of an existing pair: her chicks look almost like nigrigenis* and it can't be blamed on the cock who is 5 generations owner bred.
3) replace one 8 year old cock: this year with his first hen 4 eggs, 1 fertilised, later with hen 2 six eggs, non fertile.
The feathers go to Germany again: I read all the complaints about the
Italian lab :) .
And how about my newly invented explanation of multiple alleles?
NSL ino, pastel and dec are a "famiglia" of mutations.
This "famiglia" has an indirezzo (the pair of chromosomes) with 2 letti a un piazze (2 loci).
So they can only put to rest "2 x ino" or "1 x ino+1 x pastel" and so on at the same time.
Sometimes a silly example makes people understand complicated matters.
Enough nonsense fo today.
Tell Jas junior to behave during her holidays or else....
Bye,
Wessel.
>>
e 03/06/2008 11.30 h
>>
Hi Miriam:
I understood from the AOE forum that your baby White fronted has been killed?
I had a similar pair of A Autumnalis:
1st year, 4 eggs, 4 chicks non fed, all died
2nd yer: 4 eggs, 2 chicks, fed for about 10 days then killed;
3rd year and later after they had been sold they quietly raised all chicks hatched!
Apparently Amazons need some time tolearn what to do with their chicks.
It is not very likely the will double clutch.
But keep a careful eye ion all future youngsters and pull them for
handraising if necessary.
Just mailed this:
>>
Ciao Daniela;
>>Come diceva Orazio….. il padre e’ molto diluito, la testa e’completamente bianca e le remiganti sono bianche….. (appena scatto una foto vedo se riesco a inserirla ) In Allevamento ho altri due fischer diluiti ma loro hanno la testa leggermente bronzata e le remiganti color nocciola.>>
Standard Italiano Fischeri diluito verde (altre paise Europeane: pastel verde)
Colore e disegno
Fronte, guance, gola e zone auricolari rosso, degradanti in arancio nelle parti alte del petto. Testa grigio nocciola,
nuca degradante in grigio nocciola chiaro con riflessi arancio. Dorso ed ali verdi con aloni gialli. Basso petto, ventre e
fianchi verde chiaro con soffusioni gialle. Remiganti nocciola con vessillo esterno soffuso di giallo. Timoniere centrali (n° 2) nocciola con apice azzurro. Timoniere laterali (n° 10) nocciola con zona grigio scura alla base, zona rosso ruggine centrale seguita da striature grigiastre e verdi a tre quarti della lunghezza, apice azzurro. Codrione blu pallido. Becco rosso corallo. Cera bianca. Occhio bruno scuro con pupilla scura. Largo anello perioculare di pelle nuda intorno all’occhio. Zampe e dita grigio bluastro. Unghie color grigio scure con punta cornea.
Standard en Europa (senza Italia)
(Tradutto solo gli osservazione e gli differenzie del Standard).
Osservazione por juidici re pastel.
Con gli pastel adoperarsi per un colore uguale.
Gli ucelli troppo chiaro sono per li piu gli PastelIno e como pastel e un allele
dal a-locus (NSL ino) questi PastelIno prudurren un colore intermedio. Questi tipi no sono tipi de mostre.
Attenzionze speciale a gli remiganti: essere obligato que sono grigio.
Alguna linea del standard de colore:
Basso petto, ventre e fianchi pastel verde chiaro.
Remiganti vessilo esterne pastel verde; interne grigio.
Codrione: blu con suffusione violeta.
Zampe e dita: grigio chiara
Unghie:una gradazione piu scuro como gli zampe
----
Como ha dice: NO e un diluito ma un PastelIno.
Ahimé il nomenclature Italiane solamente cause du confuzione, tanto di nome (p.e. un nome per 3 mutazione o nome differenti per
il stesso mutazione));ché per gli allevatori, ché geneticamente.
Nomi no corretto = standard no corretto = allevatori informato male = resultati abominevole.
P.e.: Mondiale 2008:
....xxx/yyy = no. d'ucelli/punti medio
Be: 193/89,1
Nl: 188/88,5
Fr: 034/87,7
De: 022/87,1
Cz: 053/86,88
Es: 007/86,85
It: 023/86,6
Pastel e diluito sono due mutazione differente.
Diluito essiste solo con roseicollis e con nigrigenis.
Pastel, dec (dark eyed clear - chiare a occhie nere) e NSL ino sono allelichi
como spiegato gia piu d'un avolta.
Essiten:
pastel blu
dec blu
albino MA ANCHE
PastelIno
PastelDec
DecIno, fenotipi de due alleliche differente de un colore variabile.
Dunque l'ucelli e un PasteIno blu, no un diluito blu.
Wessel van der Veen.
>>
Bye for now,
Wessel.